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Post by Raksha on May 14, 2005 15:56:52 GMT
When I read Tolkien-based fanfiction, I can forgive a lot of weak plotting if the story as a whole makes sense to me and, above all, entertains me, captures me. Characterisation is important, and informs the plot...If a story presents Denethor as either a child abusers or a sweet, loving and involved father with a little palantir addiction problem, it had better be AU, or I'll read it, but with suspicion.
Plots? I love a good adventure story, a canon-romance; an intriguing AU premise. I like long fics if they can sustain the momentum. I don't care that much for romances with OC's; with one or two extremely well-written exceptions. And I think anything goes in Parody. I'm not too interested in hobbit fanfiction; mainly because hobbits don't interest me unless they're written by JRRT or are secondary characters in a fanfic.
One of these days, though, I will write a story where Aragorn and Faramir and Eomer go on a hunting trip and do not get attacked, badly injured, etc. That's become practically a fanfic cliche by now.
One thing that really bugs me in some LOTR fanfiction is the injection of modern language and idiom. One doesn't have to be JRRT to try to write in a more neutral fashion without going for flowery thees/thou's or extensive Sindarin phrasing (though I have nothing against either when done well). When in doubt on a word, check the dictionary; and if it's a word whose origin is later than the 1700's, don't use it if there's an equally good one for your purpose that's a bit older. (unless you're writing about the Shire; I think you can get away with Victorian words and language, slightly different milieu)
I also am really impressed when writers make an effort to have their Tolkien fanfic sound credible, if they've done some research when plotting scenes and chapters dealing with war/battle, healing, crafts, etc. It really helps the narrative. I really, really wish I knew as much about horses as I do about dogs, since Tolkien characters are likely to spend a lot of time with the big quadrupeds...
Thoughts?
RAKSHA THE DEMON
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Post by Lily on May 14, 2005 17:39:19 GMT
There are two German translations of the LOTR trilogy. The latest one has been written when the movies came out and it is writtten in modern language. I can only say that it is awful, although more convenient to read for kids!
I agree that out of character stories are mostly disturbing.
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Post by Rosie on May 14, 2005 23:09:48 GMT
Raksha, I pretty much agree.
When I read Tolkien-esque fanfic, I find it quite awe inspiring how good some of it is, and I know I could never aspire to that. There are some truly excellent writers out there.
Then there are the almost Tolkien-esque writers, who don't use the same style and words as the great man, but who write in a more simplified way. Some of those stories are equally good because they have a strong storyline and are well-written.
I was amazed when I first discovered fanfic and found crossover stories - LOTR/Little Women! Now I'm quite used to them and find some of them good fun even if I don't take them too seriously.
Some of the parodies are brilliant - my favourite of all has to be the "Care of" series....the Faramir one is just hysterical.
Well written slash is tolerable but one thing I have learned to do now is separate all fan fic from the real thing. When I read LOTR, I know that this is the definitive work - the real thing.
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StefaniaB
Short story writer
Belly Dancin' Gondor Babe
Posts: 113
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Post by StefaniaB on May 16, 2005 5:12:17 GMT
Raksha, Rosie, I generally agree with what you have to say.
When I first decided to write fanfiction, I intentionally chose not to replicate what i remembered of Tolkien's dialogue style. Because I was doing Movie verse, this would be easier to jusitify, I reckoned. PJ, Fran, and Philippa rewrote Tolkien's dialogue, from a stylistic point of view, with "thee" becoming "you," and other little twists to make the LOTR film dialogue more approachable for the general audience. I tried to do the same, but nevertheless still ran into all sorts of problems with anachronisms. They up and bite you no matter how hard you try.
For example, one bit I had written had Faramir dining on scones, to which SMOR commented, "Did they have scones in the Middle Ages?" And sure enough, a quick web surf to the history of food proved that scones weren't available until the 1500s.
So these are some challenges we as writers and readers face with fanfic. Another real issue for me in reading other people's fics in the Tolkienverse is the use of modern psychological terms for a person's state of mind. One writer whose stuff I liked was unhappy because I suggested she substitute the term "paranoid" for a description of how a paranoid person feels. My rationale was that paranoia is a concept of post 1850 psychology and not defined (though certainly felt) before then. It's her choice, of course, as to the terms she wants to use in her story. For myself, I tried so hard not to use the terms depression, anxiety, phobias, etc., in my story, and instead show a Faramir who can hardly get out of bed (depression) and an Eowyn who can't bear to stay in bed (anxiety).
Anyway, speaking of bed, I've gotta go there. See you later.
- Steff
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Post by shieldmaiden on May 16, 2005 13:42:04 GMT
I find that I can be a little more forgiving on the language-- trying to make my own writing more Tolkien-esque (especially since my fics are generally book-based) has been something I've had to work very hard at since I started writing and know how hard it can be to write that way. It really bothers me when obviously modern slang sneaks in though, like characters saying things are "cool" and whatnot. Characterization is vitally important to me though. Unless the story is AU, they'd better act like canon. Preferably without the fanon cliches of child-beating Denethor (or Thranduil, for that matter--how on Arda did that one get started?) For the genres, I like adventure, canon-romance (though not the extremely explicit or overly sappy stuff), humor, drama, basically anything. I'll freely admit that I tend to look for stories more that focus on Faramir, Eowyn and/or Eomer though, and that generally, stories based on Legolas just don't interest me. (Seen way too many bad Mary-Sues for that.) I like AUs when the premise is interesting and the author is very careful about how the change in the canon storyline affects the outcome. ;D rofl!! Those cliches ARE rather hard to avoid, aren't they? I know I'm currently having issues because Lothiriel's decided she wants to join in on my current story, and I'm trying to figure out how to characterize her without making her either the Dol Amroth equivilent of Eowyn, or an overly-girly princess. Those seem to be the two main cliches I see.
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Post by eggowaffles on May 16, 2005 20:09:42 GMT
As far as fanfiction goes, my general rule is-- if it has Bori and Fari in it, I'll read it. If it's well-written, I enjoy it; if not, I file it the back of my mind and make a note to work it into a parody later. Being a humorist has its perks ;D I'm not a big fan of romance, whether it's het or slash, mainly because the genre is so predictable as a whole. And I haven't yet read an OC that hasn't turned into a Sue or a Stu. Oh, and my personal opinion is that if you're going to drag something out over thirty chapters, A) make the plot somewhat cohesive and B) use Spell/Grammar check. Unfortunately, none of the authors who write thirty-chapter fics seem to agree with me... On the side, I've been having a rather disturbing urge to write something (*gasp*) serious lately... I'm not sure whether I should indulge it or continue to repress it violently
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Post by Rosie on May 16, 2005 20:17:45 GMT
Eggo, if you have the plot, then indulge it!
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Post by shieldmaiden on May 17, 2005 2:46:18 GMT
Oh, and my personal opinion is that if you're going to drag something out over thirty chapters, A) make the plot somewhat cohesive and B) use Spell/Grammar check. *makes mental note to wrap her own dragged-out story by chapter 29* And you should indulge it, Eggo!
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Post by Raksha on May 27, 2005 22:31:45 GMT
Raksha, I pretty much agree. When I read Tolkien-esque fanfic, I find it quite awe inspiring how good some of it is, and I know I could never aspire to that. There are some truly excellent writers out there. Then there are the almost Tolkien-esque writers, who don't use the same style and words as the great man, but who write in a more simplified way. Some of those stories are equally good because they have a strong storyline and are well-written. I was amazed when I first discovered fanfic and found crossover stories - LOTR/Little Women! Now I'm quite used to them and find some of them good fun even if I don't take them too seriously. Some of the parodies are brilliant - my favourite of all has to be the "Care of" series....the Faramir one is just hysterical. Well written slash is tolerable but one thing I have learned to do now is separate all fan fic from the real thing. When I read LOTR, I know that this is the definitive work - the real thing. Oh, that "Care of" series is brilliant - was that Theresa Green?
A LOTR/Little Women crossover? Wow. I assume that the March girls ended up in M-e? I could see Jo doing well as a 10th walker, and Meg keeping Arwen company in Rivendell; and maybe Aragorn being able to heal Beth; but what the heck would they do with Amy? She'd drive Elrond or Galadriel crazy...maybe pair her with Legolas, LOL.
RAKSHA THE DEMON ;D
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Post by Rosie on May 27, 2005 22:59:02 GMT
Oh, that "Care of" series is brilliant - was that Theresa Green?
A LOTR/Little Women crossover? Wow. I assume that the March girls ended up in M-e? I could see Jo doing well as a 10th walker, and Meg keeping Arwen company in Rivendell; and maybe Aragorn being able to heal Beth; but what the heck would they do with Amy? She'd drive Elrond or Galadriel crazy...maybe pair her with Legolas, LOL.
RAKSHA THE DEMON ;D The Care of your Faramir (not the right title?) is hilarious but Theresa Green didn't do that one. If I remember rightly because I didn't read it,the Little Women crossover was more to do with the hobbits in a LW type setting.
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Post by lindahoyland on May 29, 2005 1:52:38 GMT
I like plenty of angst with a strong plot line and any LOTR story I read, has to have Aragorn,my favourite character in it. I also enjoy clever parody.
I like stories about the human characters best, though I also like Aragorn and Hobbits stories I dislike both slash and Mary Sue plots and usually those with modern characters, though I did find a story"In Aragorn's Safekeeping" which was so well written, I reading it despite having 2 modern characters involved.
Bad spelling and misused words anny me as does modern idiom.
Anything like this usually makes me stop reading "
"How can you bare it ? It's awful" Aragorn said.
"Don't worry, I'm fine,it's going to be OK ."Legolas replied.
You would be amazed how often I've come across something like this !
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Post by shieldmaiden on May 29, 2005 1:57:34 GMT
You would be amazed how often I've come across something like this ! Not really. I've helped write PPC fic sporkings before. So I've seen much worse.
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Post by eggowaffles on May 29, 2005 2:12:57 GMT
I can never decide which is worse: when authors wantonly misuse apostrophes and commas and semicolons (I have an apostrophe/comma/semicolon fetish... don't ask ) or when tey strat 2 rite liek htis and us all htese innternet acronims and crap liek htat so thaat ur liek omg wtf just rite out a hole wurd for gods sak! Naturally, these often go hand in hand... however, I hate it when I come across a fic that's fairly well-written, but contains random apostophe/comma/semicolon errors that make my eye twitch involuntarily .
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Post by lindahoyland on May 29, 2005 2:37:09 GMT
I've just been reading one of the most reviewed stories around at present which has Legolas saying "I am fine" about twice per chapter.The plot is good though I remember one story (By a non native English writer)which went on about "Flower sacks" chapter after chapter! I did title one of my own chapters "Grin and bare it" wondering how many would get the joke, as the characters were bare ;D !
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Post by Raksha on Jun 30, 2005 12:30:28 GMT
I can never decide which is worse: when authors wantonly misuse apostrophes and commas and semicolons (I have an apostrophe/comma/semicolon fetish... don't ask ) or when tey strat 2 rite liek htis and us all htese innternet acronims and crap liek htat so thaat ur liek omg wtf just rite out a hole wurd for gods sak! Naturally, these often go hand in hand... however, I hate it when I come across a fic that's fairly well-written, but contains random apostophe/comma/semicolon errors that make my eye twitch involuntarily . I'm often guilty of improper usage of colons, not to mention comma/semicolon confusion. And don't ask me to define the parameters of correct apostrophe (spelling?) - I'm unsure, I just do it and pray it's alright.
I have never understood the subtleties of English grammar, despite it being my native tongue...
RAKSHA THE DEMON
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laerien
Short story writer
Posts: 192
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Post by laerien on Jul 14, 2005 20:43:53 GMT
I would like to ask something. What the hell is fluff and Mary Sue??? I have no idea.
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Post by lindahoyland on Jul 14, 2005 21:14:38 GMT
"Fluff" is a very sweet and sentimental story or part of one,such as when Aragorn is cuddling Eldarion in my "Burden of Guilt",Mary Sue is an irritating female character inserted into a story who can do no wrong and solves everything,usually as a sort of wish fullfillment of the writer
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Post by Rosie on Jul 14, 2005 22:10:09 GMT
I would like to ask something. What the hell is fluff and Mary Sue??? I have no idea. As I understand it, "Fluff" means something sappy and sentimental. A Mary-Sue is a female own character, who is usually beautiful or brave (or both) and who the hero always falls in love with. I know that SMOR can explain that better than me.
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Post by eggowaffles on Jul 15, 2005 1:47:45 GMT
I think the term "fluff" can also be used to describe cuddly romantic interactions between couples... sort of like the opposite of smut, which is a lot steamier . As for Mary Sues, I have nothing else to add to everyone else's definitions, except that they're an extraordinarily vexing literary device and usually have me torn between vomiting and kicking something. (Btw, a male Mary Sue is a Gary Stu, right?)
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Post by lindahoyland on Jul 15, 2005 2:04:53 GMT
Did you know,Eggo's that you have just posted the 1000'th post ? Congratulations !
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