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Post by lindahoyland on Nov 22, 2005 6:00:59 GMT
There is a wonderful Arwen story on SOA at the moment.called 'Arwen's Heart' about her destiny. www.storiesofarda.com/chapterlistview.asp?SID=3611I think the reason the women make the sacrifices reflect the era Tolkien lived in when a married woman was expected to give up her career to care care of her husband.
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Post by Raksha on Nov 22, 2005 9:14:41 GMT
Why do always the women have to sacrifice that much?! In all the three mortal-immortal marriage it was the woman who had to become mortal and leave her former life and family... I believe there are so few Arwen stories because she is hard to write. We know so little about her, and many author dares not to fill the blanks in him or herself. I am the living example. ;D Actually, Arwen's foremother Idril kept her immortality; it was her husband Tuor who took on Elven longevity; and they lived happily ever after in Valinor. Their son Earendil didn't stay a mortal man either; and his wife Elwing kept her Elvish nature and lifespan.
I do think that Luthien, and Beren, got the short end of the stick - they only got forty years together I think. Either forty or sixty, but I think it was just forty.
RAKSHA THE DEMON
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Post by shieldmaiden on Nov 22, 2005 15:50:16 GMT
Of course, this was after getting life, take 2...
As for what I'd consider canon, I'd say definitely LotR, the Hobbit and the Sil. I haven't read too terribly much of the HoME books, to be honest, but from what I have read, I would probably consider them to be canon unless it conflicted with LotR, in which case I would take LotR to be canon since it was the finished product.
I think I would definitely have trouble writing Arwen. I'm kind of suspecting I'm going to have to bring her into my story eventually, and I think that will be very hard. Writing Eowyn comes very naturally for me, but I don't really do anything with Elves so I'm not really sure what to do with her.
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Post by eggowaffles on Nov 22, 2005 19:43:07 GMT
Actually, Arwen's foremother Idril kept her immortality; it was her husband Tuor who took on Elven longevity; and they lived happily ever after in Valinor. I've always wondered why Tuor alone was "counted among the Elder race"... I mean, didn't Beren do just as much (if not more) in the interests of ME? Would he have received that distinction if he hadn't died?
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laerien
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Post by laerien on Nov 22, 2005 19:51:04 GMT
OK, sorry for that mistake. I should read the Silm again... I love the story of Luthien and Beren! One of my favourites in the Silmarillion. Would someone enlighten me a bit? I think I can ask this here, because I am not sure what is canon and what is fanon. What does it mean exactly that Arwen or Luthien gave up their immortality? What did change? I really don't know. I mean, had they lost their elven abilities? They slept with opened or closed eyes etc. So this kind of things.
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Post by lindahoyland on Nov 23, 2005 3:35:23 GMT
Shieldmaiden, I thought Arwen was impossible to write but I found she has grown on me and I find her much easier that Eowyn. Back to the topic, I'm reading quite a good eassay on Hobbit canon and fanon at the moment. www.storiesofarda.com/chapterlistview.asp?SID=4201
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Post by Raksha on Nov 23, 2005 9:37:33 GMT
OK, sorry for that mistake. I should read the Silm again... I love the story of Luthien and Beren! One of my favourites in the Silmarillion. Would someone enlighten me a bit? I think I can ask this here, because I am not sure what is canon and what is fanon. What does it mean exactly that Arwen or Luthien gave up their immortality? What did change? I really don't know. I mean, had they lost their elven abilities? They slept with opened or closed eyes etc. So this kind of things. I don't think Tolkien ever specified exactly how Arwen changed, physically, except that she was mortal. Strangely, Aragorn says to her, after he decides to lie down and die, that she still has the choice to 'repent' and go to the West. It's Arwen who says there is no ship that would bear her hence, and that she has already made the choice to be mortal.
It's implied that Arwen ages, or at least appears older and grey as a starless nightfall, after Aragorn dies; which makes me think she didn't change much, in terms of her beauty, while Aragorn lived. Don't forget, her uncle Elros lived 600 years as a mortal.
I personally believe that Arwen slept as a mortal, ovulated as a mortal, found her body to be perhaps more susceptible to feeling heat and cold. I think she probably kept at least some Elven abilities, such as the ability to watch over Aragorn in thought, which implies a range of interesting talents. To me, the cutoff point, the moment that Arwen began to physically change from Elf to long-lived mortal, would have been the consummation of her marriage to Aragorn. Which has possibly been put in my head by fanfic, but that notion makes a lot of senses to me.
RAKSHA
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laerien
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Post by laerien on Nov 25, 2005 22:22:59 GMT
Thanks for the answers! I think these mortal-immortal marriages were very important in the history of Tolkien's world, I am sorry that we do not know more about them.
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Post by eggowaffles on Dec 4, 2005 20:35:14 GMT
Speaking of canon and fanon... this is just something rather unusual I noticed the other day while flipping through TTT:
'You don't say much in all your tales about the Elves, sir,' said Sam, suddenly plucking up courage. He had noted that Faramir seemed to refer to Elves with reverence, and this even more than his courtesy, and his food and wine, had won Sam's respect and quieted his suspicions. 'No indeed, Master Samwise,' said Faramir, 'for I am not learned in Elven-lore.'
Just thought it was odd, given that Faramir is usually portrayed as an expert on Elves in most fanfics; sometimes I even think I've spotted him reading 'Quenta Silmarillion'. Is that fanon, then?
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StefaniaB
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Post by StefaniaB on Dec 6, 2005 1:50:05 GMT
Faramir reading "Quenta Silmarillion." Yikes, what an anachronism--the published version of same didn't happen until the mid-1970s. I've written Faramir as being aware of some of the tales that Tolkien tells in the Silmarillion, but I never refer to them as "Quenta Silmarillion."
It's fanon. BTW, Eggos, I love your Christmas Faz n' Boz.
- Steff
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Post by Raksha on Dec 6, 2005 3:03:07 GMT
Why wouldn't the Silmarillion have been written down on some scrolls or actual books, in Gondor, or Rivendell? At least some version of it, perhaps without all of the tales, but most. It does remind me of a Middle-earth Bible...
RAKSHA
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Post by lindahoyland on Dec 6, 2005 5:50:13 GMT
I admit to never having read "The Simarillion"but from what I gather,various tales from it are referred to in LOTR,so I assume some of the tales would be written down or passed down in an oral tradition.
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Post by eggowaffles on Dec 6, 2005 19:56:17 GMT
Hmmm... this leads to me to wonder how much of the information in 'the Silmarillion' Faramir might be aware of. Would he know about the Silmarils at all? What about, for instance, the fall of Gondolin, which is primarily Elvish lore but also features a man, Tuor? How about the tale of Beren and Luthien, or Narn i Hîn Húrin? I mean, obviously he wouldn't have had a copy of Ballantine Books' published edition of The Silmarillion lying around , but there's got to be something in that Citadel Archive... right? BTW, Eggos, I love your Christmas Faz n' Boz. *g* Thanks. I decided that they looked so ridiculous in Christmas hats that I evenutally went and redesigned my desktop wallpaper around that theme
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StefaniaB
Short story writer
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Post by StefaniaB on Dec 7, 2005 6:44:02 GMT
Hi Gang - Raksha said: Why wouldn't the Silmarillion have been written down on some scrolls or actual books, in Gondor, or Rivendell? At least some version of it, perhaps without all of the tales, but most. It does remind me of a Middle-earth Bible... Oh, I completly agree with you there. I just don't think that all the tales would be compilled in a book called "Quenta Silmarillion," which could easily be withdrawn from the Gondor library or purchased at the corner book store. Eggos, we know that Faramir is quite aware of the tale of the fall of Numenor, because Tolkien tells us he dreams of the waves drowning the island all the time. In my fics, I have Faramir aware of at least some of the tales from the Sil and the UT. He certainly knows the tale of Cirion and Eorl, which Christopher Tolkien published in the UT. And I'm sure he'd know some of the Elven tales that are in the Sil and the stories of the [Tolkien] pantheon. The Numenoreans sort of worshiped the Valar, a tradition that was diminished but not unknown in Gondor. To my mind, Faramir would think of these as tales told by his parents, songs sung by Bards, or possibly separate stories written down on isolated scrolls. - Steff
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Post by eggowaffles on Dec 7, 2005 19:48:26 GMT
Eggos, we know that Faramir is quite aware of the tale of the fall of Numenor, because Tolkien tells us he dreams of the waves drowning the island all the time. I knew that he would be aware of Numenor's history, it being the land of his forefathers and so directly entangled with the founding of Gondor itself... I only wondered whether he'd know about Gondolin. A bit OT here, but has anyone ever noticed how uncannily Gondolin resembles Minas Tirith?
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Elfkin
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Post by Elfkin on Dec 11, 2005 13:40:28 GMT
Gondolin and Minas Tirith? I remember thinking that... can't remember why, something to do with their histories or something... really must go read the Silmarillion again. -_-;
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Post by eggowaffles on Jan 25, 2006 19:06:38 GMT
It's amazing the things you forget when you haven't read a book in a while, as I found out yesterday while picking through FotR... At that moment from far off the wind blew to their listening ears the howling of wolves. Bill the pony started in fear, and Sam sprang to his side and whispered softly to him. "Do not let him run away!" said Boromir. "It seems that we will need him still, if the wolves do not find us. How I hate this foul pool!" He stooped and picking up a large stone he cast it far into the dark water.So it wasn't Pippin who idiotically woke up the Watcher, as in the movies... it was Boromir! ;D Poor Boromir... he's so fun when he's being sulky... EDIT: Is it just me, or does Tolkien seem to have a weird aversion to commas?
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Post by cressida on Aug 15, 2006 17:50:13 GMT
I know this is an old topic, but I've been thinking lately about that "not learned in Elven lore" line. It seems like a really odd comment, because the stories of the Elves are the history of Middle-Earth; it seems like everybody in LOTR knows them. So I don't think it can mean that Faramir doesn't know the stories of famous Elves of earlier ages. He had just been talking about Gondor's history to Frodo and Sam; maybe he meant that he didn't know much about what the Elves had been up to in the last couple thousand years? That would go along with his comment about how the paths of Elves and Men were sundered, and how there are a few men who sneak off every once in a while to go to Lothlorien. So it might mean something like "I know about the stories from the days when Elves and Men hung around together, but not much about what they've been doing since we lost touch with them." Just a thought.
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Post by Raksha on Aug 29, 2006 4:01:47 GMT
I know this is an old topic, but I've been thinking lately about that "not learned in Elven lore" line. It seems like a really odd comment, because the stories of the Elves are the history of Middle-Earth; it seems like everybody in LOTR knows them. So I don't think it can mean that Faramir doesn't know the stories of famous Elves of earlier ages. He had just been talking about Gondor's history to Frodo and Sam; maybe he meant that he didn't know much about what the Elves had been up to in the last couple thousand years? That would go along with his comment about how the paths of Elves and Men were sundered, and how there are a few men who sneak off every once in a while to go to Lothlorien. So it might mean something like "I know about the stories from the days when Elves and Men hung around together, but not much about what they've been doing since we lost touch with them." Just a thought. Within the past year (actually more like 3/4 of a year), it was made clear to Faramir that there was at least some Elven-lore with which he was unfamiliar - the whereabouts and nature of Imladris, reasons for going there, continued existence of Elrond (although he may not have known of Elrond's existence at all) - because of the dream and the words he and Boromir both heard in it. It was Denethor who knew what Imladris was, and told his sons, and also mentioned that the great lore-master Elrond Halfelven lived there. It's interesting that when Faramir discusses his lack of knowledge of the Eldar with Frodo, Faramir seems to speak with confidence and knowledge of Elrond and the connection between Elrond and the Elves/Edain. We don't know whether he had heard of Elrond before Denethor mentioned the name, or pumped his father for information.
I personally think that Faramir probably knew a lot about First Age Elves, and that his detailed knowledge ended with the Last Alliance, after which the Elves had less contact with humanity, except in the relationship between Elrond and the Dunedain of Arnor, about which Faramir almost certainly knew nothing.
Gondolin and Gondor were both beautiful cities of white stone, near high mountains, imperilled by a Dark Lord. Gondolin was an Elven city, and deliberately kept hidden, isolated from the rest of Middle-earth. Unfortunately, Gondolin was invaded and destroyed, through the exhausted Hurin's unwitting implication of its proximity, and, later, true treachery.
I wonder what Glorfindel thought of Minas Tirith, since he had lived in Gondolin and died defending its people...
RAKSHA
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