Canon and Fanon

[lindahoyland]

I've just come across this interesting site which points out what is canon and what is film or fanfic based misconceptions.
www.tinni.100megsfree5.com/canonNOfanon/menu.html

[shieldmaiden]

ooh, cool site, Linda! I was especially intrigued by the part in the human section where it had an alternate exchange between Denethor and Faramir before his attempt to retake Osgiliath. Denethor came off as a much nicer guy there.

[eggowaffles]

I thought that was interesting, too!

I also was fascinated by the alternate Ambarussa story in the Elves section (I have yet to read "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", so I only knew the Silm version...) Tolkien seems to have a thing about parents burning their kiddies alive...

[lindahoyland]

I'm glad you enjoyed the site, I ought to keep returning to it as it is so easy to fall into the fanon trap if you read quite a lot of stories as I do .

[StefaniaB]

Hi All -

I have just a few minutes in between work to respond. Linda, I promise to go to this site today. I am very curious about articles on what is canon and what is fanon. People who review my stories comment that I seem to have a different take on my human characters than is often seen in fanfic. I'm trying to be as true as I can to Tolkien and Jackson ('cause I'm doing movieverse). But I suspect that I am not too familiar with Tolkien human characters fanon and that's why my stories might seem different.

I know about the Faramir hurt/comfort genre, mostly through Linda's "Burden of Guilt" (WOW) and through the bits that I've read of Sue B's "Lasting Peace." And I think (not sure) that there is hurt/comfort fanon surrounding Aragorn. There is a Denethor was an abusive father fanon myth. Lothiriel is either a shy, retiring violet, or a tough, spritely chickie who can handle a macho man like Eomer. Any other human fanon creations?

One of the writers on Stories of Arda has a series of articles up on hobbit-specific fanon. Though I don't read much hobbit fanfic, I like hobbits and am curious about what their fanon is. I'll send a URL to CJ on this sometime later today.

- Steff

[Raksha]

I've read tons of Faramir-fics; many of them hurt-comfort. I've even written Faramir hurt-comfort (in a fic I co-wrote); though that Faramir was hybrid movie/bookverse.

For me, and, I suspect, many Faramir-fanwriters, the root of the desire to write hurt-comfort scenarios for him is that he was so badly treated, emotionally and physically, in ROTK, that we want to see more details on his recovery. We want to know what JRRT didn't tell us; like his reaction to the knowledge that his father was dead, and, later, the knowledge that his father tried to burn him alive. And we want to see him take comfort for such devastating news.

I try, when writing book-Faramir, to separate canon from fanon. There's also semi-canon - the material in Tolkien's Letters and the HoME series - that's where the name of Faramir's heir, Elboron, comes from, not to mention some description of Faramir's life and duties after the King's coronation.

And then there's what I think of as reasonable speculation - a guess, or a theory, derived by a fan from careful reading of Tolkien's published work. For instance; I believe that Faramir had a good singing voice, though he probably didn't have as much training as Aragorn had. JRRT never says that. He does say that Faramir loved lore and music; and has Aragorn singing/chanting a few times on various occasions both formal and otherwise. Also, Aragorn was raised in Imladris, where singing seems to be a favorite occupation - tra-la-la, back to the valley! Hence, my theory, IMO, is reasonable, but it's not canon, it's an extrapolation from canon.

I also extrapolate from canon that Denethor probably verbally abused Faramir quite a bit, though for how long I couldn't say; and that Faramir was tough enough to deal with it without falling apart. By verbal abuse, I don't mean that Denny screamed and yelled at his son; more like the scorn he displayed in ROTK. There also would have been some love; I do believe that Denethor loved both his sons, but that he loved Boromir a lot more. Still, Faramir loved Denethor enough to try to prove his worth to him in ROTK the book, and enough to call out to him in his fever; if Denethor was totally cold to him all the time, for 35 years, Faramir wouldn't have had any love left. My own theory is that Denethor was a lousy father, and doled out love to Faramir in miserly dribbles and drabs...

Examples of fanon -

1. Eowyn is a terrible cook. Blame PJ for that; but it's ludicrous that the Lady of the Golden Hall, who's been supervising Theoden's household for years, wouldn't know how to brew a stew that at least was edible. Eowyn strikes me as a perfectionist - she would know the basics of cooking and insist on decent food being served.

2. Eowyn would hate living in Minas Tirith, would struggle against the snobbery of the women, and court of, Minas Tirith, be miserable, and only happy in Ithilien. There's no evidence that Eowyn would fall apart like that. She's a strong woman with a very strong drive to succeed, and to bring honor to those she loves; and Eowyn doesn't like to fail. I don't think her adjustment to life as Princess and Steward's Lady would be easy; but I think she'd eventually be accepted by the highborn of Gondor and even liked by many of them. She'd make sure that she learned many of their social customs, too, while remaining proud of her Eorling heritage. (the culture of Ithilien would probably be mostly Gondorian, but have elements of Numenor and Rohan) I think Eowyn would also enjoy playing a role as Faramir's political ally and consort in Minas Tirith; meeting movers and shakers who visit from all over M-e.

3. Faramir is an artist. Don't know where that comes from; JRRT doesn't mention it, or, IMO, imply it. It's not unreasonable, I suppose...

4. Faramir never engages in military action again after Aragorn's coronation. Umm, not IMO. Or Tolkien's opinion - he said in the Letters that Faramir would be busy clearing out Minas Morgul, and would also go to war with Aragorn occasionally (leaving Imrahil behind to hold the fort). Not to mention keeping Ithilien's borders free of bandits, orcs, and other hostiles. Faramir doesn't have to fight 24/7 and all the time to keep Gondor safe anymore, but he is a prince, a lord, and a Steward, and would be expected to wield sword and bow in defense of the realm. Thankfully, strife and war would diminish, in terms of frequency, and be lesser threats in the early Fourth Age. But they would still occur.

Just some musings from the ever-garrulous...


RAKSHA

[lindahoyland]

I'm pleased you are enjoying Burden of Guilt,Steff,I know I put poor Faramit through the wringer there !

As Tolien tells us nothing about Lothiriel,I suppose writers can depict her much as they like.I've never tried writing her but have read some nice stories.

Raksha, I think you could write some better articles than on the website as you know your Tolkien so well.I only wish I had re read the book before starting to write fanfics as it had been about 20 years since I had looked at it.

[StefaniaB]

Raksha, what you said, girl.



Particularly about Eowyn hating Minas Tirith.Where did that come from? In real life, many many people migrate from the country to the city and are very happy that they did. If I ever finish "Avoidance," well,in that story one of the reasons why Eowyn doesn't want to come to Eomer when he calls her from the Field of Cormallen is she just plain likes Minas Tirith and wants to stay there so she can continue her education with the healers. In fact, could it be that she says "yes" to Faramir because she doesn't want to leave Minas Tirith. Well, maybe....Wow. That probably isn't what you see in fanon.

Also, as you know, I read Faramir hurt/comfort. And yes, I now remember "Born to Suffer," which was one of the first extended fanfics I had ever read. But I'm not into writing the genre myself, although there has to be some hurt/comfort in any Faramir fic that stays close to canon and occurs within the LOTR time frame. Tolkien wrote the first Faramir hurt/comfort fic, after all.


- Steff

[lindahoyland]

I'm no expert but the reason I had Eowyn hate Minas Tirith ,was that it was so enclosed after Rohan and she was not able to spend much time riding her beloved horses .A personal factor is,that I live in a small town and though I enjoy a day in a city, I'm very glad to get home again !

[Raksha]

I loved living in Chicago, years ago, but am not wild about NYC - too big and they drive like maniacs (or some Europeans - Romans and Parisians!), and people are too stressed.

But I don't really think that it follows that Eowyn, though raised in 'towns' smaller than Minas Tirith, would hate living in the White City.

First of all, there's no indication in TTT or ROTK, that Eowyn is a carefree free-spirited Rider who would get depressed if she can't ride Windfola or other horses every day. While she is an Eorling, and the presence and welfare of horses an integral part of her culture and daily life, the only time Eowyn rides one in LOTR is to go to war. She doesn't go to the stables (except in the movie) to see how they're faring, or do some grooming; she's busy being the Lady of Meduseld. That doesn't mean that Eowyn dislikes horses, or doesn't enjoy riding; but it indicates to me that it isn't the end-all and be-all of her existence. What is the end-all and be-all of her existence is the honor and pride of the House of Eorl, and her living and dying in a way that befits a daughter of Kings. She can do that as easily in Minas Tirith, as the Steward's Lady and Princess of Ithilien; as she could in Emyn Arnen - she will be valued and needed in both places.

I have always seen Eowyn as an ambitious, restless woman. She doesn't want to vegetate, she wants to keep busy and do important things. There's only so much she can do while nursing babies and gardening - which she'd enjoy. But I think she's the type to want to be Lady of Ithilien - gardening, horse-breeding and training, raising kids, healing, doing other good works - and a political partner to her lord as much as she can be, and spending time with the other movers and shakers in Ithilien and Minas Tirith.

I doubt that Eowyn would feel trammeled in Fourth Age Minas Tirith; she'd love being part of the rebuilding and expansion. And she could go riding around the Pelennor every other day..


RAKSHA

[lindahoyland]

I know it is pretty weird to give Eowyn my own dislike of cities,but as I find her a difficult character to write, ::)I suppose I tried to fill in the blanks ! ;DWhat reasons do others who write her with a dislike of cities have ? Then another factor for me ,as British, is that our Queen much prefers the countryside and her homes at Windsor,Balmoral and Sandringham to Buckingham Palace in London.Then the Queen's daughter,Princess Anne,dotes on horses !

[Raksha]

It's not weird; we do have some blanks to fill in Tolkien's characterisation, especially when dealing with the Fourth Age. I just think one has to be careful giving a Tolkien character's one's own feelings/qualities if there is no or little evidence that the characters would have them.

True, the Queen does seem to be much more at home in the country than in public, or in the City. But I have the impression she is at heart more of a homebody, and a sportswoman (riding, hunting) and not especially comfortable giving speeches and receiving diplomats - it's just something she does, and does well, because it's her duty.

But Eowyn seemed to have no shyness dealing with important visitors to the Mark, or in getting along in Minas Tirith - she loved being in the Houses of Healing, it was just that she had a compulsion to kill herself in battle before she fell for Faramir. I just haven't seen any scenes or dialogue to indicate that Eowyn would be nervous of Minas Tirith just because it's a different, and more citified environment than her own. She would have more of a problem adopting to a more sophisticated social environment in terms of manners, customs, protocol; but don't forget, she's a proud woman who seems to want challenge, and I think that while a more rustic life in Ithilien would please her, she'd also want to stretch her wings a bit. Also, as years pass, Faramir's home might well have a court of its own, as Ithilien becomes more inhabited and important.


RAKSHA

[lindahoyland]

I might even write Eowyn as liking Minas Tirith better if I write future stories,it's no big deal to me.I certainly think she is eager to get away from Rohan.I just wish Tolkien had told us more !

I certainly think that Ithilien would become increasingly important as the years went by and Eowyn would enjoy being the Princess.After all,beautiful though she is, she could never compare favourably with Arwen in Minas Tirith.

Maybe that is why some writers see her as unhappy there,being second in rank and beauty to Arwen ?The thought just occured to me, I know I write them as best friends but that is my idea not Tolkien's and after all she did want to be Queen once !

[lucidity]

Speaking of canon, what books do you guys consider to be canon? I have heard people literally argue over this.

It is generally accepted that the LOTR books are canon (duh) and that The Hobbit is canon, unless it conflicts with LOTR in which case LOTR will trump it.

The arguing comes when other books are mentioned. I have heard that The Silmarillion is not canon since it was unfinished at the time of JRR Tolkien's death. The HoME series I have heard is flawed as well, since it was edited and compiled by his son.

I'm curious to know what you guys think.

[eggowaffles]

I personally like to consider anything written by JRR Tolkien, even if edited by Christopher Tolkien—be it the Silm, Unfinished Tales, The Book of Lost Tales—to be canonical. While these works were all written at different points in Tolkien's life and often contradict one another on various points, I think this just increases the feeling of its being a large-scale mythological epic. I guess reading tons of Arthurian legend has indoctrinated me to the idea of accepting many versions of the same tale. ;D

However, I know that a lot of people only consider books published within Tolkien's lifetime as canon. I can sort of see it both ways.

[laerien]

That is an interesting question. The LotR and the Hobbit, that's certain. But for me, the Silm is naturally canon too.
I also accept the informations in the HoME. If something was changed later, they write it there. And only because Tolkien didn't have the time to publish it... When he left this world, he though like that. So, I take those as canon too!

[lindahoyland]

I tend to see anything Tolkiem published or intended to publish as canon,but feel free to put my own interpretation on the other works though they are useful sources of information.

I was thinking again about Eowyn in Minas Tirith and wondering why so few writers concentrate on Arwen's reactions to the city ?It was probably much harder for her having spent her time in Rivendell and Lothlorien.

[Raksha]

Good point, linda! Eowyn had a big adjustment to life in Mundberg and the building of her and Faramir's Ithilien princedom; but imagine how much harder it must have been for Arwen. Not only did Arwen have to get used to being Queen of a kingdom of Men (a very large Kingdom, needing building and rebuilding and lots of restructuring), she had to get used to being a mortal Woman, no longer an Elf. Elves don't even sleep the same way as Men - and accepting that death would happen sooner rather than later or maybe never must have been a big step for Arwen - we take it for granted, but Elves don't have to do so.


RAKSHA

[lindahoyland]

I wish we saw more stories about Arwen.I can only recall one(by a very young writer ) in which all the Gondorian ladies were very cruel to her and how she eventually won them over.

[laerien]

Why do always the women have to sacrifice that much?! In all the three mortal-immortal marriage it was the woman who had to become mortal and leave her former life and family...

I believe there are so few Arwen stories because she is hard to write. We know so little about her, and many author dares not to fill the blanks in him or herself. I am the living example. ;D